[Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released

[Hideki Kato]

Hello Darren-san,

Darren Cook: <4D2D3013.5010000 at dcook.org>:
>> Zen uses no opening book for 19x19 (but some joseki knowledge must 
>> provided by the patterns acquired from game records)....
>
>Hello Kato-san,
>Does Zen use patterns bigger than 3x3 then? (And if so, in the playouts
>too, or just in the MCTS tree?)

AFAIK Zen is the first success of the large patterns in Rémi's paper. 
The maximum diagonal of the patterns is 7 (Erica uses 9 ;^) and only 
used in the tree part.  Although Yamato started MoGo-style playout 
with local 3x3 patterns, now it's very complicated with lots of his 
ideas.

Hideki

>On the subject of joseki, it seemed Many Faces came off equal or
>distinctly worse in the joseki in the games against John Tromp. So, I
>think it needs still more joseki knowledge?
>
>By the way, in game 1 John played a move (G15) that was not joseki (F15
>is apparently the joseki move). John read the KGS comments between
>games, and played the correct move when the same pattern came up in game
>2 :-)
>
>Darren
>
>
>  Yamato once
>> tried but made Zen weaker in benchmarks, possibly due to a mismatching 
>> of the playing style.
>> 
>> Hideki
>> 
>>> This is the same with the situations of human learning. When a player is 
>>> weaker than 1d, joseki is not so important, because if he is leading 10 
>>> points in the opening stage, the game might be reversed by losing 20 points 
>>> in an easy semeai of middle game. But, when a player is improved to 1d or 
>>> 2d, joseki starts to make sense, since his reading ability makes the "semeai 
>>> big loss" much
>>> fewer.
>>>
>>> For me, I can't imagine to beat a 6d player without joseki knowledge. When I 
>>> lose 10 points in the opening, that is almost decisive. That's why pros 
>>> sometimes resign early and immediately after wrong joseki playing, because 
>>> there is no chance to reverse, in their view.
>>>
>>> The stronger the playing strengh, the more important the opening play. 9x9 
>>> Go is exactly a good example for statement. Do you think mfgo, on 9x9, can 
>>> beat a strong program, if the first move is played at the first line? :)
>>>
>>> Aja
>>>
>>>
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-- 
Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp>