[Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released

[terry mcintyre]

A starting place would be one of my favorite resources, "Joseki Jeongsook 
Compass" by Baduktopia; it is geared toward newer players and explains the 
likely outcome of playing inferior moves. 
 Terry McIntyre <terrymcintyre at yahoo.com>


Unix/Linux Systems Administration
Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.




________________________________
From: Peter Drake <drake at lclark.edu>
To: computer-go at dvandva.org
Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 10:32:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released

All true. We were hoping to get an easy boost by extracting joseki from recorded 
games of strong players. Finding refutations of bad moves is more difficult, 
because strong players don't make the bad moves and weak players don't know how 
to refute them. :-)


Peter Drake
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/

 

On Jan 12, 2011, at 6:04 AM, terry mcintyre wrote:

My reading of the Orego paper on joseki seems to confirm that "good joseki 
moves" are stored in the table, but the refutations of bad moves are not. 
>
>
>Is this correct? 
>
>
>If so, then consider that the program used for test purposes might use such a 
>"bad move" or might even use a "trick move".
>
>
>The proper reply is important in either case, but especially for trick moves; 
>other replies are often a loss. 
>
>
>I suggest that you won't see a general improvement from joseki unless a) you 
>know how to punish non-joseki, and b) you know which joseki are more appropriate 
>in a given situation. 
>
>
>If I read the Orego paper correctly, joseki are treated as patterns on one 
>quarter of the board; the rest of the board is not considered. However, numerous 
>joseki moves depend upon a ladder several moves down - one should not select the 
>"joseki" move without first exploring ahead and checking the ladder condition. 
> Terry McIntyre <terrymcintyre at yahoo.com>
>
>
>Unix/Linux Systems Administration
>Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Hideki Kato <hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp>
>To: Aja <ajahuang at gmail.com>; computer-go at dvandva.org
>Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 11:09:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released
>
>Aja,
>
>Aja: <0B435C80F12A4EDCAEB1A45E1607BCEC at homepce1bd7763>:
>>I re-post because the format seems to be in a mess.
>>
>>Hi David,
>>
>>> I also found that it makes no real difference to strength against 
>>> computers,
>>> but helps a little against people, and makes the games much more peasant 
>>> to
>>> watch.
>>
>> I haven't try joseki in Erica, but it looks strange to me that you said 
>>joseki "makes no real  difference to strength against computers, but helps a 
>>little against people". At least, in the game mfgo against Erica in this KGS 
>>tournament, mfgo was leading from the beginning mainly because of good 
>>joseki replies in each corner.
>>
>> I think joseki is very important for Go programs as soon as they reach 1d 
>>level. I believe, a Go  program will never reach stable high dan (>=KGS 4d) 
>>without joseki knowledge.
>
>Zen uses no opening book for 19x19 (but some joseki knowledge must 
>provided by the patterns acquired from game records).  Yamato once 
>tried but made Zen weaker in benchmarks, possibly due to a mismatching 
>of the playing style.
>
>Hideki
>
>>This is the same with the situations of human learning. When a player is 
>>weaker than 1d, joseki is not so important, because if he is leading 10 
>>points in the opening stage, the game might be reversed by losing 20 points 
>>in an easy semeai of middle game. But, when a player is improved to 1d or 
>>2d, joseki starts to make sense, since his reading ability makes the "semeai 
>>big loss" much
>>fewer.
>>
>>For me, I can't imagine to beat a 6d player without joseki knowledge. When I 
>>lose 10 points in the opening, that is almost decisive. That's why pros 
>>sometimes resign early and immediately after wrong joseki playing, because 
>>there is no chance to reverse, in their view.
>>
>>The stronger the playing strengh, the more important the opening play. 9x9 
>>Go is exactly a good example for statement. Do you think mfgo, on 9x9, can 
>>beat a strong program, if the first move is played at the first line? :)
>>
>>Aja
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>-- 
>Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp>
>_______________________________________________
>Computer-go mailing list
>Computer-go at dvandva.org
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>
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