[Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released

[Peter Drake]

All true. We were hoping to get an easy boost by extracting joseki  
from recorded games of strong players. Finding refutations of bad  
moves is more difficult, because strong players don't make the bad  
moves and weak players don't know how to refute them. :-)

Peter Drake
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/



On Jan 12, 2011, at 6:04 AM, terry mcintyre wrote:

> My reading of the Orego paper on joseki seems to confirm that "good  
> joseki moves" are stored in the table, but the refutations of bad  
> moves are not.
>
> Is this correct?
>
> If so, then consider that the program used for test purposes might  
> use such a "bad move" or might even use a "trick move".
>
> The proper reply is important in either case, but especially for  
> trick moves; other replies are often a loss.
>
> I suggest that you won't see a general improvement from joseki  
> unless a) you know how to punish non-joseki, and b) you know which  
> joseki are more appropriate in a given situation.
>
> If I read the Orego paper correctly, joseki are treated as patterns  
> on one quarter of the board; the rest of the board is not  
> considered. However, numerous joseki moves depend upon a ladder  
> several moves down - one should not select the "joseki" move without  
> first exploring ahead and checking the ladder condition.
>
> Terry McIntyre <terrymcintyre at yahoo.com>
>
> Unix/Linux Systems Administration
> Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.
>
>
> From: Hideki Kato <hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp>
> To: Aja <ajahuang at gmail.com>; computer-go at dvandva.org
> Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 11:09:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released
>
> Aja,
>
> Aja: <0B435C80F12A4EDCAEB1A45E1607BCEC at homepce1bd7763>:
> >I re-post because the format seems to be in a mess.
> >
> >Hi David,
> >
> >> I also found that it makes no real difference to strength against
> >> computers,
> >> but helps a little against people, and makes the games much more  
> peasant
> >> to
> >> watch.
> >
> > I haven't try joseki in Erica, but it looks strange to me that you  
> said
> >joseki "makes no real  difference to strength against computers,  
> but helps a
> >little against people". At least, in the game mfgo against Erica in  
> this KGS
> >tournament, mfgo was leading from the beginning mainly because of  
> good
> >joseki replies in each corner.
> >
> > I think joseki is very important for Go programs as soon as they  
> reach 1d
> >level. I believe, a Go  program will never reach stable high dan  
> (>=KGS 4d)
> >without joseki knowledge.
>
> Zen uses no opening book for 19x19 (but some joseki knowledge must
> provided by the patterns acquired from game records).  Yamato once
> tried but made Zen weaker in benchmarks, possibly due to a mismatching
> of the playing style.
>
> Hideki
>
> >This is the same with the situations of human learning. When a  
> player is
> >weaker than 1d, joseki is not so important, because if he is  
> leading 10
> >points in the opening stage, the game might be reversed by losing  
> 20 points
> >in an easy semeai of middle game. But, when a player is improved to  
> 1d or
> >2d, joseki starts to make sense, since his reading ability makes  
> the "semeai
> >big loss" much
> >fewer.
> >
> >For me, I can't imagine to beat a 6d player without joseki  
> knowledge. When I
> >lose 10 points in the opening, that is almost decisive. That's why  
> pros
> >sometimes resign early and immediately after wrong joseki playing,  
> because
> >there is no chance to reverse, in their view.
> >
> >The stronger the playing strengh, the more important the opening  
> play. 9x9
> >Go is exactly a good example for statement. Do you think mfgo, on  
> 9x9, can
> >beat a strong program, if the first move is played at the first  
> line? :)
> >
> >Aja
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> >Computer-go at dvandva.org
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> -- 
> Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp>
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