[Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released

[terry mcintyre]

My reading of the Orego paper on joseki seems to confirm that "good joseki 
moves" are stored in the table, but the refutations of bad moves are not. 

Is this correct? 

If so, then consider that the program used for test purposes might use such a 
"bad move" or might even use a "trick move".

The proper reply is important in either case, but especially for trick moves; 
other replies are often a loss. 

I suggest that you won't see a general improvement from joseki unless a) you 
know how to punish non-joseki, and b) you know which joseki are more appropriate 
in a given situation. 

If I read the Orego paper correctly, joseki are treated as patterns on one 
quarter of the board; the rest of the board is not considered. However, numerous 
joseki moves depend upon a ladder several moves down - one should not select the 
"joseki" move without first exploring ahead and checking the ladder condition. 
 Terry McIntyre <terrymcintyre at yahoo.com>


Unix/Linux Systems Administration
Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.




________________________________
From: Hideki Kato <hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp>
To: Aja <ajahuang at gmail.com>; computer-go at dvandva.org
Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 11:09:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released

Aja,

Aja: <0B435C80F12A4EDCAEB1A45E1607BCEC at homepce1bd7763>:
>I re-post because the format seems to be in a mess.
>
>Hi David,
>
>> I also found that it makes no real difference to strength against 
>> computers,
>> but helps a little against people, and makes the games much more peasant 
>> to
>> watch.
>
> I haven't try joseki in Erica, but it looks strange to me that you said 
>joseki "makes no real  difference to strength against computers, but helps a 
>little against people". At least, in the game mfgo against Erica in this KGS 
>tournament, mfgo was leading from the beginning mainly because of good 
>joseki replies in each corner.
>
> I think joseki is very important for Go programs as soon as they reach 1d 
>level. I believe, a Go  program will never reach stable high dan (>=KGS 4d) 
>without joseki knowledge.

Zen uses no opening book for 19x19 (but some joseki knowledge must 
provided by the patterns acquired from game records).  Yamato once 
tried but made Zen weaker in benchmarks, possibly due to a mismatching 
of the playing style.

Hideki

>This is the same with the situations of human learning. When a player is 
>weaker than 1d, joseki is not so important, because if he is leading 10 
>points in the opening stage, the game might be reversed by losing 20 points 
>in an easy semeai of middle game. But, when a player is improved to 1d or 
>2d, joseki starts to make sense, since his reading ability makes the "semeai 
>big loss" much
>fewer.
>
>For me, I can't imagine to beat a 6d player without joseki knowledge. When I 
>lose 10 points in the opening, that is almost decisive. That's why pros 
>sometimes resign early and immediately after wrong joseki playing, because 
>there is no chance to reverse, in their view.
>
>The stronger the playing strengh, the more important the opening play. 9x9 
>Go is exactly a good example for statement. Do you think mfgo, on 9x9, can 
>beat a strong program, if the first move is played at the first line? :)
>
>Aja
>
>
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-- 
Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp>
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