[Computer-go] John got tromped by Zen 1-3

[Andy]

Zen19S and Zen19N already played far more than 100 rated games on KGS with
reasonable time controls (20+5x:30).  In an environment like KGS I think
these medium time controls are the best you can hope for.  I think many
human players on KGS wouldn't take the game seriously enough to take full
advantage of even slower time controls.  Still this is generous enough to
get well away from blunders due to blitz or from confusion over the
computer's strange style.

They are both 4d with those time controls (Zen19S's graph has drifted to 5d
but that was after it quit playing rated games back in September so I would
discount that for now).

- Andy


On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 4:26 PM, terry mcintyre <terrymcintyre at yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> This match was interesting in that a program, known to regularly defeat 5d
> players in sort-of-blitz conditions, is also very competitive in slower
> times which give humans plenty of time to think. It's not a comprehensive
> test - a better test would be to leave it connected to KGS, offering games
> with longer time controls for 50 or 100 games - but it's not nothing
> either.
>
> If I were of John Tromp's strength, I'd be reluctant to bet on a rematch
> in a year's time. Between Moore's Law and the inevitable algorithmic
> improvements, it's only going to become tougher.
>
> I am hoping that some program unseats Zen in the KGS computer vs. computer
> competitions; winning 8 games out of 8 is too good of a result; a real
> "nemesis," a strong enemy, would spur the Zen team to strive even harder.
> Right now, it's the program to beat.
>
> I think the crazystone analysis may lead to interesting results. Is it
> robust enough to suggest better moves? Can it be made so? Can it discover
> computer blunders, and help in their remediation - if not online, in
> post-game analysis?
>
> Terry McIntyre <terrymcintyre at yahoo.com>
>
> Unix/Linux Systems Administration
> Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Don Dailey <dailey.don at gmail.com>
> *To:* computer-go at dvandva.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:56 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] John got tromped by Zen 1-3
>
> I know that everyone at this point thinks John is all washed up for this
> kind of match,   but I don't agree.
>
> Basically we have concluded based on a mere 3 games that John Tromp was
> "crushed" by the computer as if there was no hope had the match continued.
>    If the first 2 games had been a loss but John had won the last game,
> we probably would be viewing it slightly more rationally - as John having a
> chance.
>
> It's probably not very practical for logistical reasons,  but a match like
> this should really played with a lot more than 3 games.    This was fun,
>  but only proved what we already knew and nothing more - that computers are
> now dan players.
>
> A ten game match also would not be enough,  but it would certainly be far
> better for a more educated guess about reasonable expectations.    Would it
> have been 9 to 1?     Would it have been a close match?
>
> Imagine that both John and the computer were perfect evenly matched with
> each having a 50/50 change of winning each game.     The likely score would
> have been 2-1 with a 3-0 quite possible too,  despite perfect equality of
> the players and yet we are acting almost as if this was clear proof that
> John is washed up and can no longer compete.       Had John won 2-1 how
> would we be talking about this?     Probably we would be saying that
> computers still have a long way to go while criticizing or laughing at some
> of it's "gaffes."
>
> So seriously,  let's not make more of this than it actually is.
>
> Don
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Michael Williams <
> michaelwilliams75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> John, thank you for doing this!  But with all due resepect, you have been
> eclipsed and we need a new challenger.  For next year (or whenever) I hope
> that person is as reasonable and sane as John has been.  Not everyone is
> cut out for the quirks of the man-machine matches.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Darren Cook <darren at dcook.org> wrote:
>
> > (i) MC winning percentages (by Many Faces of Go)
> > http://www.althofer.de/zen-tromp-04-percents.jpg
> >
> > (ii) Traditional territory scores (by Many Faces of Go)
> > http://www.althofer.de/zen-tromp-02-territory.jpg
>
> I think that 2nd link should have been:
>   http://www.althofer.de/zen-tromp-04-territory.jpg
>
> (but, in his defense, Ingo was posting at 5am :-)
>
> Darren
> http://dcook.org/gobet/
>
> --
> Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
>
> http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
> http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles)
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